Belong

Interview with Kunya Rowley
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Kevin Micalizzi: Welcome to Belong. I'm Kevin Micalizzi, and I recently had a chance to sit down with Kunya Rowley. Kunya's the founder of Hued Songs, a nonprofit dedicated to amplifying Black joy, culture, and belonging. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you like it as much as I have. Thank you.

Kevin Micalizzi: Kunya, thanks for joining me here, today.

Last time you and I did a podcast interview was a different podcast. It feels like with the pandemic, like several lifetimes ago. And I remember back then talking to you about how you were leading a sales team and trying to bring your work in the arts into it. And then when we caught up again, not too long ago, you have just turned that world on its head, and I'm here for it.

So I'd love to kind of talk through, like, one, why did you walk away from your corporate job?

Kunya Rowley: Yeah, well, you know, so I made the shift in 2020 and you know, I think something else kind of traumatic happened during that year. It and, you I woke up one day and I was like, what is going to bring me joy in every facet of my, my life. And so I made a shift and I didn't leave, I didn't jump into leading my own arts nonprofit right away.

I had always been singing on the side. I had always been doing some projects on the side. But I decided to go into the world of philanthropy and started working for a local foundation in Miami leading the arts and culture grant making. The director of Music Access Arts and Culture, giving out money in the arts for about two years.

And then I made the leap once again, with this idea of wanting to be happy in every facet of the work that I did, both personally and professionally. I made the leap to jump into my nonprofit as a full time executive director.

Kevin Micalizzi: You know, obviously this podcast is about belonging, and your nonprofit is about belonging as well.

Kunya Rowley: Yes. So, you know, I, I sometimes will answer a question with a long story, but I'll first tell you our mission. We experiences that amplify Black joy, culture, and belonging. And five years ago, when I first started the initiative as project, I had no intention of starting a 501c3, but I recognized it as was and performing and going into spaces, I would often walk into rooms or I would be an audience member and I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me. I also didn't see a lot of stories on stage unfold that sounded like mine and I started to feel really disenchanted with classical music. So I really, really, you know, I wanted to see and hear stories that, reflected my own, upbringing. I wanted to see more diversity. And so I had this opportunity to apply for a grant , Kevin, I will tell you that I applied for this grant and it was to, it was so that I, Kunya Rowley, would perform songs by Black composers. I had no intention of having anyone else perform with me. And we got the grant and what I recognized within, you know, the first of months of beginning to build the project was there were so many other artists in the community who were also looking for a platform to be seen and to be heard and to be paid as an artist. To be able to show up as their full selves. And so our work really blossomed and shifted. And so we create experiences are music to dance to spoken word to but it really is to serve as one, artists of color can be seen, heard, and most importantly paid for their work. Two where we're creating experiences that are accessible to our community and we think about access in all the ways. Access isn't just about cost, it's about location, it's about, barriers around perception. I think sometimes when we think about a just the idea of having to walk into a theater feels already inaccessible. And then the third is, and sometimes I say it's corny, but actually I think for this podcast, it maybe is not corny at all, Uh, the third is that we really do look at the arts as a critical lever to building community, to shaping belonging. And so all of our work really centers around bringing people in and finding ways to connect because that's how we build, that's how we build

empathy.

Kevin Micalizzi: Right. Right, so you're creating a space for the artists to feel they're valued, to feel they belong. And at the same time, you are trying to design everything else around it to ensure that community feels the same way. And kind of where the two meet.

Kunya Rowley: Absolutely.

Kevin Micalizzi: love that.

Kunya Rowley: Yeah.

Kevin Micalizzi: I love that in your, uh, in your TED talk, uh, your TEDxMiami, uh, which I'll put for anyone listening, I'll put in the, uh, show notes.

It's totally worth checking out. Um, when you talked about, like, the four different areas you look at and you work on when you're approaching this. You've already talked about this. Artists, you need the artists to bring their entire selves.

Like, all of them. Not just, you know, bits and pieces. You, you want them to be an active part of shaping the story we tell. Um, and you obviously want to pay artists, artists, If I can say the word artists, you pay, want to pay artists fairly. Um, and then my favorite was the fourth. Sprinkle in something extra.

What did you mean by that?

Kunya Rowley: You know, I think that It's so interesting coming from the world of, um, of classical music, because often it is a very rigid art form. Um, you, you're going to perform what is on the, in the sheet music, you are going to stick to that?

and, and nothing else.

Kevin Micalizzi: Well, because that's the way we've been doing it for a hundred years, right?

Kunya Rowley: exactly.

exactly. And, you know, I think what I've learned, you know, working in corporate America for quite some time, working in philanthropy, and now also leading, being the founder and leader of an arts organization, a nonprofit, is that there is no one size fits all solution for anything, but also for anyone. And so I also, that little something extra, I realized that I have to sometimes be a chameleon in helping to, you know, make people help people feel like they belong.

And so, and I think one of the things I think about when we talk about bringing Someone's whole selves. Um, I recognize that I will have to work with a variety of artists across our ecosystem, and so I know that if I'm hiring a parent to be a part of our performance or to be within a show, I have to like, honor and recognize that like, as a caretaker, like, it may mean that like, They're going to have to take a moment to care for this person.

They may be late to a rehearsal. And so I think that's something extra. Sometimes it's compassion. Sometimes it's empathy. Sometimes it's just listening. Um, you know, I think in that pod, uh, in that performance, um, The, the Sunday extra was, was optimism, um, but it really shifts and changes because I think that's what makes, uh, makes each of us so special. And, you know, it's like, what we need is going to be different. What I need is different from what you need. And, um, we have to recognize that for every single artist, every constituent, every community member that we work with.

Kevin Micalizzi: Right, and I love, like, the use of arts to bring people together to create that space. Um, it's, I've seen it applied in a number of areas. Um, like one of the non profits I work with, who I hope to have on at some point soon, uses filmmaking to, to really help, uh, homeless and marginalized youth to get control of their lives and express themselves and really build from there.

So one thing, That I always find fascinating is when you're, when you're working with artists and, and these kinds of productions, you don't always have, you're not working from a set framework, right? You're, you're essentially inventing as you go. How do you do that and, and still ensure that everybody there is feeling recognized, welcome, you active participant?

Kunya Rowley: That is a really good question. You know, I would say there are a couple of things that we think about. I think first and foremost, whenever we are creating a performance, um, we think about what is the story that we want to tell, um, and how do we ensure that whatever we are doing in any form is really going to honor that story. The second thing that we often think about is, The partners that we work with, you know, we are purposely a nomadic organization, and so we perform all over. And so part of what's important to us is that we also find partners who value these tenets of connection and empathy and And belonging. And so it starts with a really the story that we want to tell.

It includes really powerful partners. And then I think the thing that's always really important is, yes, like, who are the artists that we are going to work with to tell the story? I think first thing, you know, first things first is, how do we ensure that these artists also reflect the story that we want to, we want to shape and tell? And the second thing is, You know, there's kind of this, uh, there's, you know, those images, those memes, like what people think I do, what my parents think I do, and what I actually

Kevin Micalizzi: Right.

Kunya Rowley: I think that folks maybe think that

as an artistic director for, you know, a production or for a show, I come in and I've got everything figured out, and I'm really just gonna boss people around. Direct case closed, and I realized that actually my biggest superpower in being a creative leader for an organization is making the space is cultivating a space where people can enter and be free to to share to be vulnerable to To give of themselves, uh, to contribute, um, I often say that, like, actually, my role is less as a director and more of a shaper.

I guess, give us, give the ideas. What do you want to contribute? And then I help, I help shape and call and guide. Um, but I really think that, you know, part of. What's really critical is how do we ensure that we, uh, sometimes step out of the way to allow other people to also contribute and be a part of the story?

Kevin Micalizzi: I was gonna say sometimes it must be difficult because most people are not used to entering a performance space like that where you're helping to shape that outcome versus, you know, how do I express myself and and my ability within like whatever limited frame I was just given, you know, it sounds like you are you are trying to open that up, which I imagine people must struggle with sometimes.

Kunya Rowley: You know, it's interesting. I think part of we, uh, Purposely, you know, recruit and find and cultivate artists who enjoy and value collaboration. And I would find that, like, there's something that is really interesting, um, that happens between when we first work with an artist to working with them again. We try really hard to engage artists and work with them over and over and over again because I think that's how you you also kind of cultivate

Kevin Micalizzi: Right,

Kunya Rowley: and it is hard certainly

to at the start but I think that at the end of the the day people really want that space and especially as artists you know I think one of the things that it really frustrates me when We invite artists to a space.

You know, if I'm a municipality or business, you know, I say, yes, I want an artist to come paint a mural or I want an artist to come sing a song. And we say, here's your 3 minutes, sing a song and get out. Uh, here's your wall, paint the mural and get out. And I think this idea of like, what does it look like to invite an artist into the space? Not to just, you know, take and pull from their artistry, but for them to actually actively contribute to the story that you were trying to tell. And so I think that we don't often partner with artists. Um, we, we, we leverage them, we use them, but not as partners. And so I think that actually, yes, it's hard, but I think artists want to be partners.

Kevin Micalizzi: Right. I wonder if that comes from the whole, you know, classical approach to performance, you know, it, it was written 100 years ago, and this is how we do it. And you really, you always draw within the lines. That's, that's what I think I'm thinking about it. And in your case, you want to move the lines.

Kunya Rowley: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, um, especially in during COVID, and I hate to even bring up COVID because it feels like it was so long ago, but, but it truly has had an impact. I think that we recognize that It is okay to acknowledge when things are broken and to say, like, we're going to reshape the thing that we want to, we want to build and create.

And I think that often as a small arts, small arts organizations, we are often in the cycle of, of just having to scrape together to do the thing. And we don't have the ability to, to be innovative and to think about actually, even though this is the way that we've always been doing it. There actually can be an alternative way.

And so I think one, COVID, COVID really taught us, um, that it's okay to, to, change the, the rules of the game. Um, and I think that's been really helpful. And I think as a smaller organization, we're nimble enough to be able to try things. And I think the other thing that's really important is. And I, uh, in my previous role, uh, working at the Miami foundation, uh, one of the things that my, my boss said that I was so taken aback with, and it stuck with me. Uh, she, we were on a staff meeting call and she said, you know, I just spent. Two hours, you know, trying to raise money and I got so many no's, you know, I got, you know, so many people said no, no, no. And she's like, I'm so happy about that. She's like, it meant, it means that I was brave in making these asks. Um, it means that like, I was bold. And I think that sometimes we have to be okay with failure and failure and like, in the best ways. But the the ecosystem has to be ripe for that. And so when we create spaces where they are failure friendly, we learn from those mistakes. People feel like they belong. Um, you know, I think that it's okay to then change how the picture is drawn and where the lines.

are, because we recognize that, like, this may be end up horribly going horribly wrong, but that's okay.

Kevin Micalizzi: Yeah. Well, I think too often we You know, everything that we think of as like, this is the way we're supposed to do it. We only do it that way because at some point somebody else experimented to get to that. And, you know, over time it, we said, oh, that's great. Let's repeat it. And then it just becomes doctrine.

It becomes, you know, the, the approach. And, and you don't grow, you don't change. Unless you try something different, like you did. During the pandemic. And I think the pandemic is worth bringing up because I still think we're feeling the effects of it when it comes to belonging. And when it comes to feelings of community and knowing others, people still feel disconnected,

Kunya Rowley: Yeah, you know, I think I realized during COVID, um, how honestly bad I was at staying connected to people. Um, and it was actually, I think, this really beautiful reminder at how, Like, A, important this was for like, you know, just it is as like, we, we want this. Um, but to also recognize that like, wow, I really did not do a good job pre COVID of, of really asking people like, how are you staying connected? Um, I think that one of the gifts of COVID. If there were gifts, you know, prior to 2020, we were, I was constantly on the go at this event, doing this thing, producing this thing. And I think that COVID really gave us this opportunity to, to be more reflective, um, to find ways to connect with people beyond ourselves, not because we needed it.

I think it was critical. Um, and so I think that like part of what that also unlocked for. for. me as a producer and as a director and as a leader of this organization was that we also needed to, if we were going to do this work as an organization, it's not just about producing a really beautiful performance, but what is the way that we continue that? offstage as well.

Kevin Micalizzi: right?

Kunya Rowley: are

thinking a lot about how we are a resource and a connector for the artist ecosystem that the artist ecosystem that we work with. Um, so again, it's not just that we want you for your talent for you to be a part of this performance and then we, you know, wipe our hands clean of you.

Kevin Micalizzi: Right.

Kunya Rowley: it's, we want you for this

performance and, um, we want to find ways to also. Contribute and shape and guide amplify the things that you're doing, even if they're not with us as well. And I think, um, yeah, if anything, you know, COVID really taught us how to be more intentional about being about that connectivity tissue.

Kevin Micalizzi: That's a great way to say it. So one thing that I've noticed with, um, belonging is the minute you talk about belonging, everyone assumes you're talking about building community. And, I mean, that alone could have a million different meaning, meanings. But I, I noticed what you're very intentional about, how you talk about it, because this stemmed from the fact that you weren't seeing yourself reflected.

In the performances, in the material, in, you know, any of what was already happening. And you wanted to create a space where you could find that representation and others could as well. That's not necessarily community building, right? It's, you're not saying, I want to bring a specific set of people together.

You're saying, I want to. more broadly increase that sense of belonging and, you know, that feeling of being acknowledged, recognized, noticed, valued. How, how did that work in your mind in terms, because most people go, Oh, well, you know, I need to build something and just start bringing people together. And, and I think there's a beauty in how you approach this because you wanted to create something Not repeatable, but something that you could build off of.

And I'll stop talking because I love this and I want to keep asking questions. Um, but I'll let you answer this one first.

Kunya Rowley: Yeah, you know, I think I mentioned earlier that create building heat songs happened. I mean, I would say maybe Sarah, I think that's Serendipitously, my goal was never to start a 501c, 501c3. In fact, I often am like, I think the world doesn't need any more 501c3s. Um, but I think what I recognized was that there was, there, there was a space missing for, for me and for other folks. And I think that actually what I, Part of the impetus for Hude Songs in saying that I would do this was my own reflection that sometimes I have felt the strongest sense of belonging, or I would say curiosity, because I think curiosity is also critical for belonging, um, one, in artistic experiences, you know, art is, is, how we make sense of the world. And so I think that it's really valuable to, to create things. I think it's, um, it's really. I think it's really valuable in helping to bring people together. Um, but it also made me think about, you know, I, for a long time, I sang during the High Holy Days in Jewish temples. And for me, it was such a powerful vehicle for me to learn about myself and to learn about other folks.

Because when we make space to, for, People to share who they are fully, it gives us permission to do that as well. Um, so I think it was learning, uh, you know, about Jewish heritage in my many years singing in, in temples. Um, my husband is a citizen of Cherokee nation and it was, you know, learning about him and his family and his indigeneity. Um, and so recognizing that, like learning about other people and what makes them. uh, different and how we celebrate that, um, how that shaped my own representation of belonging. I was like, you know, I think, uh, all of that was baked into my work with huge songs. Um, and I think the other thing is what I recognize is that it happened. I had to, first.

and foremost, recognize, um, before I could make a space, uh, of belonging for, for other people. Like I had to really understand like what that meant for me. Um, and so I think, you know, it wasn't just about wanting to make a space for, for black and brown artists and music. Um, I wanted a space where I could be my entire self.

You know, I think often we have to. wear many hats when we walk into a room. I have to decide like which hat am I going to put on for which conversation? Um, you know, and as a black queer millennial Caribbean man, I want to be able to walk into a space where, um, all of those, those hats come with me. Um, and so I think that that was a really big learning journey for me as well.

It's just as a, as a person.

Kevin Micalizzi: Right, right. But it sounds like, well, I shouldn't say but, right. It sounds like you've been thinking about this for a very long time. Was there motivation? Was there some something that instigated you thinking about this? And realizing you could do something about it.

Kunya Rowley: Yes. You know, so. Our work started really, like, first and foremost, I want to create amazing, beautiful experiences. Um, but I started to think about the impact and effect it was having, not just on the artists who were a part of our performances, you know, who shared that, uh, with us. That being a part of this work was really special for them, but I started to see the impact it had on the audience members who came to our performances, how they really felt like they were in a space where they could be themselves. I started to see the way that it impacted our board of directors. I saw the way it started to impact our donors. And so I really began to think about actually, like, in many ways, I hope that Hued Songs is shaping the community and the world that I want to live in. And it was when I started to follow, um, the Belonging Institute in California that I recognized, like, how important, um, belonging actually is just to, like, Our, our world, um, you know, I think one of the things that I recognize is that belonging is a critical component, um, to how we show up and see ourselves in our community and our world, whether we, um, are, you know, it.

impacts whether or not we decide we want to, to vote and like, and all these ways, um, belonging is actually a critical, um, pillar, um, of healthy, thriving communities.

And so if the world that I want to live in, um, is one in which people are connected, um, if the world I want to live in is one in which where everyone, uh, feels like they have a place, um, I really started to think about our work more broadly beyond the arts and really as a vehicle to shaping and building, um, belonging.

Kevin Micalizzi: Thank you for mentioning the Othering and Belonging Institute out of UC Berkeley. I will, uh I will definitely include a link to that in the show notes. I started this process before I discovered them, and it's been phenomenal just really going through that content and realizing how many people out there are putting so much time and energy into the things that, you know, you and I both find incredibly important.

Kunya Rowley: Well, you know, I think it's the other thing that is really interesting is. I stumbled upon them, you know, I hate this sometimes, but so much about applying for grants. Yes, it's about the, the, the qualitative things that you can share. We know that our performances are spectacular. You know, we know people leave feeling so so grounded and inspired. Um, but you also have to put some of the quantitative things in there, too. And so we were thinking about, and we haven't really cracked this code yet, but with the thing that we're thinking about often is, how do you measure if people feel like they belong? Um, how do you measure, like, if, if coming to a performance or if being a part of our work for over a year, um, if that moves the needle forward?

Because ultimately, That's what we want, you know, in this, in this, in this, you know, hopefully, I don't want to sound too pessimistic, but in this world, um, that sometimes can feel really siloed. Um, like how do we as an organization, like what is our role in helping to to move the needle forward in connecting people?

Um, because I, I think about this often, um, the, the question I ask myself is so what, um, you know, we, if we do this performance, what will be true because we've done it? And my hope is that, um, you know, to your point that it, it shapes and creates connection, belonging, empathy. Um, so OBI, the Othering and Belonging Institute has been really helpful in being able to, is there. They're doing just that. They're quantifying, um, so much of this data and these statistics and giving folks the framework for that as well. And so, um, definitely they've been a great resource.

Kevin Micalizzi: Yeah, yeah, that's a tough challenge to have because, I mean, I think on some level, you'd want to, you'd want to be able to quantify how many people come back, how many people felt connected enough to the space that, and to the performance and to everything that they feel drawn back to it, which, you know, it's tough to do without being invasive.

Yeah, wow, that that is a tough one. Tough one to solve. What I want to ask you is, is really about, um, where you're at right now with the nonprofit and where you want to take it, because I know you're primarily in Miami at the moment, right, in terms of, you know, putting on productions, bringing people together and, you know, connecting with that audience, but I know you mentioned, you know, you, you referred to yourselves as, as nomadic and I'm assuming, you know, there are other places you want to bring that as well.

Kunya Rowley: Yes. Thank you. That's a great question. Um, you know, we recognize as an organization that in the same way that I in South Florida, which is really a diverse area, but in the same way that I was looking for that place, um, you know, where I could, you know, Really be seen and heard, um, and be imbued in the in the type of art that I wanted to create here that there are so many other communities like that as well.

And so. We absolutely hope to, to, to tour some of our work, but also, um, we, I live actually between South Florida and Tulsa, Oklahoma, and so we have incorporated in Tulsa, uh, and we'll actually have, uh, a first season in Tulsa starting in 2025. Um, so I'm really, really excited about that. Um, but I, you know, I think in many ways. You know, our hope is to expand our team and to actually deepen our work around building community. You know, one of the things I'm really interested in is this concept of creative placemaking. And it is really inviting communities to help shape, um, to use art to tell the stories that they want to tell.

And so I think we often, we We look at the process of creating art as the job and the role of the artist. But I think that actually, everybody has the ability to, to, to create art, um, to dance, to write a poem, to sing a song, um, and so we're really thinking about how do we begin, not just in South Florida, but in other ways, in other areas, um, to really embed, um, Um, creative placemaking, uh, within communities.

And so we're empowering folks to, um, to use art to tell the stories that they want to tell. Um, and then my other goal, you know, it's my lofty one, but I'm going to say it on this podcast. So, you know, if anyone ever, anyone wants to help make that true, um, you know, we are, I'm thinking about the ways in which this organization, this art, the, our commitment to. to building community, to building empathy, to using art to shape belonging, how it lives on beyond myself. You know, I, I don't plan on, you know, leaving the organization forever. Um, and so we're hoping to build a multi million dollar endowment so that this work lives on beyond a single leader. Um, and also beyond turbulent times, you know, one of the things that we recognized in Florida. Uh, was we, um, you know, many organizations were dependent sometimes on grant funding, um, and, uh, arts funding for the state wasn't renewed. And so many folks had to scramble. And so, um, what is the way that, what are the ways that we ensure that, um, This art and this work lives on beyond, um, you know, the tumult of, of, of day to day life.

And what is the way and what are the ways in which this world, this work lives on, um, beyond myself, this board. Um,

Kevin Micalizzi: Yeah. Well, I mean, you, you, you have this beautiful creation. You, you want to make sure it's sustainable. That makes total sense. yeah,

Kunya Rowley: yeah,

Kevin Micalizzi: I do like, I like that concept of, of leveraging art in an even broader sense. You know, not just, I hate to use the word passive, but like, when you go attend an event, you know, you're usually a passive spectator versus like really using the art to express yourself as well.

Oh,

fantastic.

Kunya Rowley: no, I, yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah.

Kevin Micalizzi: I love it. Anything I haven't asked you about the work you're doing that you were hoping I would?

Kunya Rowley: No, I mean, you know, I think that you shared, you touched on so, so many things, but, you know, I think one of the things, um, one more concept that I just want to highlight, you know, in, in thinking about, as I was kind of thinking about this conversation, um, was the ways in which belonging is also, you know, in the ways that we invite people in.

I was thinking about the ways that, you know, that yes, we are We are creating these performances that that are inspiring were, but we're also making sure the artist ecosystem that you work with, um, feels like they have an active voice. We make sure that our audience members feel like they are invited into a space where they're fully welcomed.

And I've also realized this with our board of directors that if you want, you know, wrangling a board. is sometimes like wrangling cats. Um, and what I recognize and I, and I recognize this also from my work in corporate America was that when people feel like they belong, when people feel like they have a voice, they are more productive and they are more efficient and more effective. Um, and I think that it's been so helpful. It's radically shifted how I work with our board. Um, people feel like they, like they want to contribute. They want to have a voice. They want to help, um, and so sometimes it's, it's our job, um, to make that space, um, for them.

Kevin Micalizzi: Right.

Kunya Rowley: So that

Kevin Micalizzi: Yeah. I don't know. I mean, from, from as much as I know of you, I'm assuming you model that behavior on a daily basis.

Kunya Rowley: I try and I love that you should, you know, I try and I recognize that it's a muscle. I recognize that if it's something that we, we aren't intentional about on a daily basis.

just like any other muscle, it gets weak, it atrophies. Um, and so I think about this often, you know, not that it's, you know, the mantra that I wake up with, but I do think about this idea of like, um, I recognize that every action I, I take, I make, um, has a ripple effect.

And so I think it's really important to recognize that it's not just a, you know, a one and done. It really

is a practice.

Kevin Micalizzi: a beautiful way to think about it.

Awesome, Kunya. Thank you so much for doing this with me.

Kunya Rowley: No, thank you for inviting me and having

me.